Quote of the day 9th October 2013

"The greatest crime to our own people is to be afraid to tell the truth"

(Stanley Baldwin)

Comments

Jim said…
Interesting, David cameron can lie through his back teeth when it comes to the EU and and the simgle market, can lie his socks off when it comes to the fact Norway has a veto, and more infulence than the uk in world governing bodys, there is a fear to tell the truth.

Osbourne can stand and lie and say the economy is getting better, its not, its just inflating, so he decides to inflate it further to hide the figures, not exactly telling the truth really.

Then comes Adam Afriyie over the weekend.
Lets have a referendum on "Europe" before the next election. His only aim, however, was not to answer the budding question it was to ensure that UKIP voters do not affect the tory vote so much in 2015.

So do me a favour Adam, either start to tell the truth to the british people or just simply go back to sleep.
Chris Whiteside said…
Well, you're entitled to your view, but I can't really agree with anything in that comment, except that Adam Afriye has called for an earlier referendum.
Jim said…
There is a difference between a view, which is something you are expressing in your disagreement, and a statement of fact, which is all my comment contains.

"Cameron told porkies on the Norway veto" - that is a statement of fact.
"this is a good/bad thing" - that would be a view or an opinion on something.

so you may agree or not on my comment opinions - ie that the lie told by cameron is a fear of telling the truth, but you cant disagree with the fact of the lie itself.
You can disagree with my opionion that the osbourne lie is "not exactly telling the truth" but you cant disagree with the fact that that the infation is indeed making the recover appear when its not really there,

So whilst i am gratful that you do allow other opinions and I guess it is my opinion on Adams motives, you cant just reject a comment as opinion when it does contain a lot of fact as well.

Let me put it another way
Gordon Brown taxed my pension fund - this is a fact
Gordon brown sold off a lot of british gold - this is a fact
Gordon brown was possibly the worst chancellor and then PM in my lifetime - that is my opinion
Chris Whiteside said…
OK, if you want to go through on this basis. I agree with all three of your points about Gordon Brown and about which are facts or opinions.

However ...

* Most allegations that someone is lying or telling "porkies" are matters of opinion, because it is rarely possible to be certain about whether the person making the statement actually believes it.

* It is possible for intelligent people to disagree about to what extent Norway has the ability to influence single market rules. For that reason I am not calling you a liar although I disagree with you.

That Norway does not have a formal veto over EU decisions is an objective fact - in my opinion - and it is also an objective fact that we would lose ours if we left.

One can make an argument - and you have made a strong one in the past - that members of the EEA, like Norway have some influence on single market rules, but the argument that they have more influence than EU members does not - in my opinion - stand up to scrutiny. I do not believe that either side of this argument are telling deliberate "porkies".

It is also an objective fact - in my opinion - that Britain has more influence than Norway now, not less, although we still would have most of that influence - as a G8 member, UN security council permanent member, and OECD member, for instance - if we left the EU.

Whether what was left of the UK would be able to hold onto that influence if the Scots vote for Independence is another matter entirely but that is a different debate ...

It is also an objective fact the British growth figures are adjusted for RPI, and that they are driven to a significant extent by export growth, and it is an objective fact that almost all economic commentators including some who are not very friendly to the Conservatives think that the British economy is growing. Those who criticise Osborne have almost entirely moved on to the territory of whether we have the "right" kind of recovery.

Since many of his harshest critics accept that the economy is growing, the suggestion that George Osborne does not believe his own words when he says that the same thing, which is what you would have to prove to substantiate the charge of lying, is - in my opinion - very unreasonable indeed. But I am not accusing you of lying because I accept that you believe what you wrote.

I don't pretend to know what Adam Afriye's motives were - it's pretty unlikely that he was trying to lose votes for the Conservatives but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he also thought calling for an early referendum was in the national interest.

Incidentally the original Baldwin quote was in the context of being open and honest with the British public about the capabilities of a potential enemy we might be thinking of going to war with and the potential consequences - "the bomber will always get through" - of such a decision.

Now was there a recent PM who failed the Baldwin test of giving the British people accurate information about a potential enemy? I seem to recall that there was.

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