Ben Kelly on British and Scottish nationalists
One of the most extraordinary ironies of current British politics is that there are in these islands two strong forms of nationalism which make practically identical arguments for the geographical unit on whose behalf they seek independence but each of whom, in the great majority of cases, vehemently reject the same arguments when applied to a different geography within the British isles.
The arguments in favour of Britain leaving the European Union are, in my humble opinion, virtually identical to those for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom except that, also in my humble opinion, the evidence for the former is a little stronger.
Similarly the arguments against Britain leaving the EU are extremely similar to those for Scotland remaining part of the Union except that in my opinion the evidence for the latter case is stronger.
I can understand people in Scotland who voted "No" and "Remain" (which as these two positions won in Scotland is probably the largest group of Scots.)
I can understand those who voted "Yes" and "Leave" and this equally logical position is actually held by a larger proportion of Scots than the SNP leadership currently want people to believe. I suspect that the SNP leadership's pro-EU stance is entirely tactical: most of them don't actually give a damn about Brexit, but it makes a really good stick to beat the unionists with.
If Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues really thought through, took seriously and consistently applied the arguments they use against Brexit it is very difficult to see how they could be such enthusiastic supporters of Scottish independence.
I can certainly understand those who believe in democracy and consider that the results of both the EU referendum and the first Scottish Independence referendum should be respected.
I can also see how it might be possible for a person who thought there were decent arguments both for and against Brexit and also for and against Scottish Independence might arrive at the position that there was a narrow balance of argument in favour of one but against the other.
What I cannot for the life of me understand is how so many apparently sane people could adopt as an article of faith either the conviction that anything other than total independence from Brussels is slavery but London having a substantial element of control over the affairs of Scotland is fine, or vice versa, that anything other than total independence from London is slavery but Brussels having a substantial element of control over the affairs of Scotland is fine,
The extreme example of this extraordinary piece of cognitive dissonance is those who suggest for one single millisecond that the difficulties which the UK are having with Brexit is an argument for Scottish independence from Britain.
Anyone who suggests that is quite literally arguing, in effect,
"Breaking up a 43-year old union which takes 18% of Scottish exports is going really badly, so instead let's break up a 300-year old and much deeper union which takes 60%."
(In terms of inter-country trade by Scotland. exports to the rest of the UK account for 60% of overall Scottish exports, exports to EU countries other than the UK account for 18% and non-EU exports 22%. Source: a Scottish government website. In other words, effectively the SNP's own figures.)
It's a bit like saying "Sawing off my own left arm is proving really painful, so I'm going to saw off my right arm and both legs instead."
Let's take an example. Suppose Scotland gets independence and applies successfully to join the EU. The rest of the UK then signs a trade deal with Trump's America which the EU doesn't like.
We would then find that most of the very same arguments about the border on the island of Ireland which have caused so much difficulty in the Brexit negotiations, would then equally apply to the border between England and Scotland.
This is one of a number of reasons why it is very probable that at least one EU member state - Spain is the most likely - would veto any application by an independent Scotland to join the EU. But a Scottish state which was independent of both the UK and the EU would still face the same border issues if it tried to follow an independent trade policy.
There is an interesting opinion piece which Ben Kelly wrote on "The Article" site in mid August,
"Hardline Scot Nats and obsessive Brexiteers are peas in a pod,"
which looks at some of the parallels between these two groups and which you can read here.
The arguments in favour of Britain leaving the European Union are, in my humble opinion, virtually identical to those for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom except that, also in my humble opinion, the evidence for the former is a little stronger.
Similarly the arguments against Britain leaving the EU are extremely similar to those for Scotland remaining part of the Union except that in my opinion the evidence for the latter case is stronger.
I can understand people in Scotland who voted "No" and "Remain" (which as these two positions won in Scotland is probably the largest group of Scots.)
I can understand those who voted "Yes" and "Leave" and this equally logical position is actually held by a larger proportion of Scots than the SNP leadership currently want people to believe. I suspect that the SNP leadership's pro-EU stance is entirely tactical: most of them don't actually give a damn about Brexit, but it makes a really good stick to beat the unionists with.
If Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues really thought through, took seriously and consistently applied the arguments they use against Brexit it is very difficult to see how they could be such enthusiastic supporters of Scottish independence.
I can certainly understand those who believe in democracy and consider that the results of both the EU referendum and the first Scottish Independence referendum should be respected.
I can also see how it might be possible for a person who thought there were decent arguments both for and against Brexit and also for and against Scottish Independence might arrive at the position that there was a narrow balance of argument in favour of one but against the other.
What I cannot for the life of me understand is how so many apparently sane people could adopt as an article of faith either the conviction that anything other than total independence from Brussels is slavery but London having a substantial element of control over the affairs of Scotland is fine, or vice versa, that anything other than total independence from London is slavery but Brussels having a substantial element of control over the affairs of Scotland is fine,
The extreme example of this extraordinary piece of cognitive dissonance is those who suggest for one single millisecond that the difficulties which the UK are having with Brexit is an argument for Scottish independence from Britain.
Anyone who suggests that is quite literally arguing, in effect,
"Breaking up a 43-year old union which takes 18% of Scottish exports is going really badly, so instead let's break up a 300-year old and much deeper union which takes 60%."
(In terms of inter-country trade by Scotland. exports to the rest of the UK account for 60% of overall Scottish exports, exports to EU countries other than the UK account for 18% and non-EU exports 22%. Source: a Scottish government website. In other words, effectively the SNP's own figures.)
It's a bit like saying "Sawing off my own left arm is proving really painful, so I'm going to saw off my right arm and both legs instead."
Let's take an example. Suppose Scotland gets independence and applies successfully to join the EU. The rest of the UK then signs a trade deal with Trump's America which the EU doesn't like.
We would then find that most of the very same arguments about the border on the island of Ireland which have caused so much difficulty in the Brexit negotiations, would then equally apply to the border between England and Scotland.
This is one of a number of reasons why it is very probable that at least one EU member state - Spain is the most likely - would veto any application by an independent Scotland to join the EU. But a Scottish state which was independent of both the UK and the EU would still face the same border issues if it tried to follow an independent trade policy.
There is an interesting opinion piece which Ben Kelly wrote on "The Article" site in mid August,
"Hardline Scot Nats and obsessive Brexiteers are peas in a pod,"
which looks at some of the parallels between these two groups and which you can read here.
Comments
We want a Scotland that is independent of the rest of the UK, - Yeah I get this part, that's OK
And the first thing we want to with our new found independence is give it away. - Erm, you see this is the bit I struggle with.
And the people of Scotland voted NO to independence.
Since Wales voted Leave this position is not just contradictory but explicitly contrary to the wishes the people of Wales expressed at the ballot box.
Of course they would have the same difficulty as Scotland in getting the EU to agree: the probability that at least one EU member state, such as Spain, would veto a membership application from either an independent Scotland or an independent Wales must be significant.